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Doctor Aaron Halliday is a behavioural scientist and president, Partner and co founder of Trust included in Toronto, Canada.  Trust included is a consultancy that leverages science and data to help people thrive at work and beyond. - Aaron and I talk about, among other things, universal basic income, emotional intelligence, and how not to go crazy working from home.  


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Hi guys, this is Gabriel Horvat and welcome to the addicted to learning podcast. In every episode, I get to sit down and learn from all kinds of interesting people; appreciate you guys tuning in today. Let's get right to it. In this first episode, I have the pleasure of talking to Dr. Aaron Halladay.

Aaron is a behavioral scientist and president partner and co-founder of trust included in Toronto, Canada. Trust included as a consultancy that leverages science and data to help people thrive at work and beyond Aaron and I talk about among other things, universal, basic income, emotional intelligence, and how to not go crazy.

Working from home. Now, since this was my first ever podcast recording, I'm definitely nervous. And I think it shows, so please forgive me when I'm stumbling, because I'm brand new to podcasting. That being said, here's my interview with Dr. And holiday. Hope you enjoy Erin holiday. Thank you so much for making the time.

Um, yeah. Um, I'm a little nervous. Listen, not going to lie. It's my first podcast. Um, we, we connected on Twitter. Yeah. And, um, you sort of actively approached me, which I really appreciate. Yeah. Um, I do some podcasting myself and I know it can be kind of a scary sort of situation, but you had made a post or something like that, that you were interested in podcasting.

And so I figured I'd reach out and, you know, help wherever I could. And so that's how this kind of came about. Yes, you do. I went on your LinkedIn. I went to your website, I went through your Twitter. Do you do so many, so many things like, and have done even more things? I feel like, I feel like I go on your LinkedIn and it's like a town, and then I look at you and you look so young and I'm like, wow.

Um, I'm, I'm just, I'm just impressed with what you've done so far. I'm not gonna lie. Um, um, Yeah. How about, how about since we're recording this in early may, 2020 during the Corona outbreak? Um, how about I saw, um, this is very interesting and, um, I'd like to hear your take on this. Um, I saw you tweet on a universal, basic income and how it really helped right now.

Okay. How, how would it help? Well, I'm not an economist, but I have my own opinions on things. And I think, uh, there are a lot of people talking about this sort of thing, especially if you look at like Andrew Yang and I believe Bernie Sanders has probably brought that up as well. And, and the primary argument for it is that if your people's basic needs within your country, aren't being met, that you should be probably providing a means by which you can provide a very baseline amount of stability for these people.

This may sound like a radical socialist move to some, but I mean, the countries that are entertaining, these ideas are usually the most industrialized, like most advanced countries in the world. And they can afford to do some of these things, especially during the time of COVID for example, um, if, if you look at what Andrew gang was proposing originally, I think he was saying like a thousand dollars a month, uh, at one point, and then after COVID had begun, he had actually pointed out that, that, that probably during an, uh, dire situation like COVID today, you'd be more close to doubling that figure.

So you'd be looking at about $2,000 a month. Uh, I know that in the United States, they had this one time sort of payment that they offered people to as, as a COVID risk payment funding, sort of, uh, uh, stimulus package. And that was about like $1,200. And, but in other advanced countries throughout the world, it doesn't look exactly like that.

Uh, I know in Canada, for example, we're receiving $2,000 a month, um, for the, for the first four months, at least. Uh, so. Um, I, nobody has any idea how long this is going to last. And everybody has to be conscious and all countries have to be conscious going into things that they're not just going to bleed their country drive of money and their devalue their dollar.

Uh, so there's things to be cognizant of we're going into this, um, uh, and be careful about doing, but I think that the idea right now is about getting people through to the other side. Uh, in, in a normal day to day experience, I think basic income is a good idea for a number of reasons. Anyways, um, I know that in the city of Toronto, we had a basic income plan that was tested and people, it didn't really impact the economy in a bad way.

Um, it, it actually provided, uh, more means that wish people could do things and take more business risks, uh, for example, to, to start their own businesses and that sort of thing. Rather than, you know, motivating people to, and that this is like the typical conservative arguments against it, uh, too, that they will just like, people will take the money and be lazy with it.

And, um, that, that just doesn't seem to be coming out. Uh, and in many countries that have entertained and tested the, uh, the basic income kind of structure, but I mean, everything's new days with this. So testing is a good idea with, with programs like this and policies like this. Uh, so the reason I'm bringing this up is because, um, so I'm German, myself, uh, Germany obviously is a, um, well, a more socialist country, certainly in comparison to the us.

Um, and, um, you know, there's debates everywhere. Um, as far as universal, universal basic income, there is obviously, um, uh, very, um, You know, Americans would say, wow, that's, that's incredible. But like in Germany you get, um, up to, I think it's 18 months worth of, um, unemployment benefits, uh, when you get laid off.

And, uh, if you, if you work that job for more than, I think kind of like two, one and a half, two years or something, it's pretty, and you get like 60% or something, I don't want to, you know, I, I obviously I can look this up, but it's, it's pretty generous. And, um, Germany also has this, um, um, this, uh, adult education, um, system where, um, there's a lot of retraining options.

Um, they recently started, um, paying the government, started paying for people to go to coding, boot camps, to rescale, which is just fantastic. Um, back then, back when I was doing a coding bootcamp, uh, two years ago, I wanna say I had to pay out of pocket. And by now, Um, it's being paid for by the government.

Um, but then on the other hand, you have people saying, um, yeah, you know, yeah. They're going to be lazy. Uh, and, um, so, um, the question is I've seen sort of both sides of the coin, um, because especially with, um, wealthier countries, You know, a lot of people are going to be content, just drinking beer, you know, on the front porch.

Um, w what do you sort of say to that? I kind of want to challenge you on this because, um, I feel like, yeah, I would say, look at the data is that actually occurring? And I don't think like, it's nice to see us. Those are nice. I'm not denying that, but, um, I don't think that most people are using the money just to go and get loaded, that that doesn't seem to comport with it.

Yeah. Evidence, uh, even if you were to look at them, people who that would generally do that, these people, if you're looking at them and that's all they would do with the money that they're given, that you're talking about people with problems of alcoholism or drug addiction and these people, historically speaking, even today, they've been.

Some of the least served people in all of healthcare, not just physical healthcare, but mental health care. If you look at the statistics, people with addictions are like 84% likely to not get any treatment whatsoever, even though they're, you know, they have a mental health problem. So there's an argument to be made that somehow providing a means by which these people can eat out a living.

Even if it's in some way, supporting their habit, uh, may be better than, you know, leaving them on the streets with nothing to fend for themselves and, and, and, you know, possibly run into a heck of a lot of trouble. I'm not saying this is the ideal sort of solution for alcoholism or, or addictions. I think that this is, this is a solution for many different problems.

Um, and if you, if you're, if you're pointing at people with addictions and saying, These are the people that are abusing the system, show me the evidence. And if the evidence is, is leaning in that direction, I would still counter that point by saying, okay, what about the rest of, you know, 75% of humanity or more that doesn't have any problem at all with substance abuse.

Uh, uh, and that would benefit from a program like this. So like you can't point to the most problematic aspect of a solution and go. This is the defining reason why you shouldn't do it. If the vast majority of humanity would benefit from it. And then we have other issues pertaining to redistribution of wealth.

We live currently in today where the wealth inequality is at it's greatest point, historically speaking for, Oh, God knows how long it's it hasn't been it's worse than it was in the 1920s prior to the market crash, uh, in the United States, uh, which is saying something it's ridiculous. We have now a situation where I think it's something like 24 people on like 60% of the wealth in all of the world.

And I don't think that by giving an enormous amount of wealth to people who aren't largely not going to use it, they're just going to try and grow. It is necessarily the way by which you help. The most people. There are, there are many ways that you can go about helping more people. I'm not saying that everybody should deserve a free ride.

Uh, I, I believe that, you know, people should, people should generally have their best interests looked after by your government. I don't think that's asking too much. Um, but yeah, these are just my opinions. Again, I'm not an economist, so, um, yeah, I was, um, I was reading, um, About, uh, I was reading this article by bill Gates, where he was suggesting something like an automation tax to, um, to pay for universal basic income, essentially.

And it was really just a couple of percentage points, um, that was sufficed for, um, in that example, you know, to be able to pay for the entire us as, um, you know, population for the universal, basic income, which just blew my mind. Well, universal basic income has a number of benefits over and above traditional social security plans.

Like the total traditional social safety net. If you look at just the administrative costs that go into paying for things like food stamps and other things, they're like six or seven times more than they are for basic income. And the reason why is because if it's basic income, And you don't really have to think or evaluate the people that apply for it because everybody gets it.

So that cuts down the administrative fees quite a bit. Um, and when you save money like that, that's better Mo that's more money that you could spend on other things. Uh, and I don't think a lot of people are aware of that. Uh, and it's something that people should definitely consider or automation taxes with regards to AI and robotics and that sort of thing.

That is interesting and useful. Um, and I think that that is probably the way that society is going to have to move in the future as more and more work becomes automated. Uh, but it it's about, it's about actually getting this stuff done. And bill Gates might actually have, uh, a good heart in that regard by suggesting it, and I'm very happy that there are wealthy people out there with good hearts.

Uh, but there are a number of people out there that. Are wealthy and are not so generous with that wealth. And I think that we all can think of a couple off the top of our head. Um, and so what do you do about these people? And they often have a large, large amount of lobbying interests and, and large amounts of funding going into preventing these sorts of things from, from actually taking hold.

And so, I don't know, it becomes a complicated problem. Uh, it really does with regards to like, how do you. Implement the solutions for, for the most amount of people. Uh, when, when people with a lot of wealth had a concentrated amount of power, and this is even more problematic in countries that don't have a proportional representation in their voting system or a voting system that, you know, uh, even I would say would, would, would allow the most number of people or, or.

Uh, to, to actually select the candidate for president or prime minister or whatnot. I'm being very careful with my words cause it's difference differs depending on what country you're in and what, what system you're dealing with. Um, but at the end of the day, we have multiple problems that are, that are at work here because we can't successfully and relate some of the, the.

Distributions of wealth and the concentrations of power to be something more equitable to, with regards to the people in these countries, uh, without, uh, you know, under restructuring, possibly the way that we do things outside of the workplace. So with regards to voting and things like that, are you, um, I'm sure you know, this, uh, Israeli writer, um, Harari.

Um, he wrote like will day is 21st rules of 21st century. Um, and he, um, he suggested while essentially I think like it comes down to sort of like quote unquote soft skills becoming more and more important in this, in this new era. Um, Of automation and tech and those sort of Metta skills of being able to, you know, re-skill learning how to learn emotional intelligence, um, which is sort of also, you know, what you're talking about and dealing with quite a lot, especially as far as, um, your work with, with organizations.

Um, generally speaking, tech workers are, you know, low on emotional intelligence. Um, To sort of increase emotional intelligence, if you will. There's a lot of things that you can do to increase emotional intelligence, but I would also kind of preamble this whole discussion kind of correct him for the fact that people think that soft skills are the new hard skills.

But I think that soft skills are always required of your job. People were just kind of resistant to that idea for a long time. And I think there's a lot of reasons going into that. There's a lot of things feeding into that. Including the fact that that soft skills or quote unquote emotional intelligence skills.

I mean, if that's what you're referring to specifically were traditionally seen as weaknesses or components of human behavior that are associated with femininity in it. And at one point, historically speaking, women were not looked at favorably in the workplace. In fact, they were looked at as something that should not be associated with workplace at all.

And I would say that there are some situations where they're not really well-received. Still today in the workplace, very, very favorably. Um, there's a lot of struggle that goes into, uh, women, uh, achieving C-suite executive sort of positions. There's, um, a known statistical, uh, likelihood that even when you're hiring more women, more women are these women are more likely to leave your organization just because their needs aren't met because there there's internal bias going on and there there's there's.

Structures and policies and systems internally within organizations. So even though you may be trying to be more diverse, you're not necessarily being very inclusive and this forces people out, and this is just pointing out the fact that we still have a lot of room to grow in that, in that regard. And this is all tied to the reason why we're probably just coming around now, uh, to the understanding that emotional intelligence is this valuable thing.

And it was only very recently that I think Wayne Payne and his original dissertation, uh, that, that wrote about emotional intelligence, uh, was written. So like as a concept, it's rather newness as well. Uh, but I think people always were aware, uh, of emotional intelligence in the sense, like there are people that get rather hot headed and like these words are common.

Vernacular was, were very common and it's not a, it's not a surprise that. It probably would not have been very surprising to people in the past, uh, to point out that people's emotions impact their performance and behavior and other things. So how do we go about improving emotional intelligence? There's a number of ways that you can go about doing this.

Um, and, uh, I mean, you can educate yourself about these sorts of things. There are a number of programs and things that you can take. Uh, I am, I have one within my company that, that we've developed, uh, but. Even if you don't have the capability to pursue something like that, that right now, maybe you don't have the time or the resources to invest in something like that.

There are little things that you can do day to day that also have been shown to have statistically significant impacts on your emotional intelligence. So meditating meditation is one of those things that is highly correlated with emotional intelligence for a whole wide range of reasons. Uh, it allows you to be presently minded.

And focused on the, uh, vote, your attention focused. Non-judgmentally on what's going on with you right now. And so all of that is very important. If you're trying to understand your emotions, understand the emotions of others and trying to self regulate. And so that's one reason why meditation or a few reasons why meditation, uh, would actually have a beneficial effect.

And so they recommend that you'd meditate, you know, about 20 minutes a day, uh, every day, And, uh, that usually after a few weeks has, uh, enough of a statistical effect on what you, they call your traits, trait level, the measures of mindfulness. And so hopefully, uh, after this point, you would also likely be starting to get better at meditation and B uh, developing a little bit more emotional intelligence beyond that.

You can also do things like reading, reading fiction in particular is actually beneficial. Uh, thing with regards to developing emotional intelligence, the idea of being in reading fiction, you're taking on new perspectives of people you're engaging with, with something that a psychologist called theory of mind, but it's basically understanding that other people have different thoughts than you than your own.

And you're engaging with those thoughts in a fictional sense. Um, this is just a, they've noticed like a small correlation. With regards to emotional intelligence and, and, uh, fiction reading. So, you know, that's something that you could also consider, uh, writing is also journaling. That sort of thing is also in lines with that.

And there are, uh, there is some research out there showing that these sorts of things work, uh, effectively for that part of it also is, is understanding some of the core concepts and skills and applying them to your daily life. When I say this, I think it's that a lot of. The S the way that life is structured is often very busy.

It's often very stressful and people just don't take the time to slow down and consider how they're reflecting on things and how they're experiencing things. And I think that this is one way by which, uh, if people were to just do that, it would probably have a good impact on their life and the way they work and their relationships with others.

Right cause emotional intelligence. I mean, everything, you're just that pretty much also, you know, applies to, you know, reducing stress, reducing anxiety levels, um, even actually on a physical level, reducing inflammation levels, um, you know, the whole thing. Um, I, myself actually just recently started, you know, hardcore meditating, quote, unquote.

I started doing like an hour a day, you know, which, I mean, if you're, if you're used to, if you're only doing 20 minutes and then all of a sudden you do an hour, like it's, it's, it's really hard. I mean, for me at least. Yeah. Yeah. And that's good for you and like an hour a day, I know many people do something like that.

It's not what I would say beginners typically start at, but, um, if you can, if you can I say 20 minutes a day, uh, because. A lot of people don't see themselves as having, you know, th that much time to spend. They have, they have kids, they have work, they have these days homeschooling and lives. And if the research shows, which it does that 20 minutes a day is the bare minimum, just to see an effect, uh, then maybe I want to put it in more of a realistic perspective of people for people.

Um, they don't have to spend two hours, three hours, four hours doing something like this. Um, No 20 minutes. If you have time to watch a crappy TV show, you should probably have time to meditate. And I mean, how you engage with it is important too. If you're sitting there falling asleep, that's not meditating.

There's a, there's an actual way to go about doing it. And it requires focus like requires attention. Um, so you, you really should learn how to do it effectively. And, and there's, you know, audio things that you can listen to, to walk you through this sort of. Exercises of meditation, uh, that I think would be really helpful.

And I think that people should definitely take a look at that. Do you have a, if you find, I could share a link with you and you could probably send it, put it in your show notes if you want. Yeah, yeah, totally. Totally. If you have a sort of meditation, you know, program, or, you know, what have you, yes, please say that we'll, we'll link it in the show notes.

Sure. Um, let's kind of switch gears a little here. Um, I saw your, um, quote unquote, exploring the cultural psychology of video games.

Yeah. Is that your way of saying, you know, during Corona virus, you're playing a lot of video games. Uh, I did play quite a bit of rim world for a little bit. Uh, I just needed to decompress a little bit, so take a couple of days off to play. Really? Yeah. Um, yeah. But, uh, that, that data largely involved, uh, collecting already existing data.

So the thing about research is, is that if, if you have data that you don't have to collect from participants, it saves time, it saves money, save effort. And so it's a great thing to do. And, uh, basically there's a number of. Excellent repositories of data available online. Uh, there's a number of links that could provide for budding data, scientists, psychologists, all sorts of things.

Um, so I can send you those links. Uh, and I, one of the repositories of data, I found having to be illegal legends data. So I had a lot of data involving that. Um, but then I wanted to supplement it. So I went and I did a bunch of web scraping with regards to the players of this, of this video game. Uh, all of these were league matches.

So these players were not only recognized with regards to their team and their personal, like their name, uh, but also their location. Because with regards to league of legends, they have different leagues depending on where you are in the world. And part of that has to do with your nationalities. So they record that as well.

And you can use that to make inferences about people's personality actually. So, uh, there are a number of variables that are tied to nationality, and there's a number of variables that are tied, like personality variables, I mean, that are tied to nationality. And there are a number of variables that I had with regards to video game data.

So how aggressive were these people? Uh, that sort of thing. Uh, and I was looking at that and there's very small effects, uh, but they were detectable because they had such a huge amount of data, uh, that showed that that depending where you are in the world, Certain things like a high high level of masculinity would make you more risk taking, uh, more, more likely to, to be, uh, aggressive, that sort of thing in a video game.

Hi, I'd just like to clarify more aggressive in real life because of the video game or during in the video game. So these are like behavioral markers. So you, you can be a support player in league of legends. You can be like more of an aggressive person. You can be a more defensive player. Yeah. Uh, so th these are just the sort of variables that you can track.

You can also track things like collecting wealth in that video game. So, so there's like little variables that are representative of how you may play in the video game. That were somewhat tied, very loosely to, to the, the cultural data that I had on each player. Mind you, the fact that I found anything with this at all is probably amazing because I didn't collect personality data from the actual people themselves.

These were standards for what they might be. Uh, so yeah, and none of this is like, uh, published research or anything yet. This is just stuff I was. Screwing around with, as a data scientist, you don't want anybody to get the wrong idea. So, uh, like basically, uh, I was just curious and looking into things with existing data, uh, and, and I had fun and it was informative and it represented something that I think was informative to people and the way that they work and how they think go about doing things and thinking about things.

And there's a huge body of research, uh, that shows that there are cultural differences. If you look at the psychological research, the actual research, um, it shows that, you know, cultural differences, do you have an impact impact on how we work and how we live and how we behave? So I think it's more important to check out the actual evidence on that.

Um, but it, wasn't a fun little exercise for me and I think I would do it again. Yeah. Yeah. I'm actually, um, So I personally, uh, I have sort of like an addictive personality, which is why I haven't played video games and like probably 10 plus years, um, at this point, cause I just know I can't just play for a half hour.

Um, but I know plenty of people that have enough, um, I dunno, discipline willpower, um, to just be able to decompress and, you know, play like for like a half hour. Um, And I actually think that's beautiful because the video games on a practical level teach actually a lot of skills and, um, are pretty valuable in that regard.

Yeah. There's a lot of psychological literature out there that goes, that shows that even violent video games. It, and I want to be clear here, violent video games in no way, promote violence. Uh, but they're there actually, there are some benefits to be had from them. And they're, there's funny, it's funny things that they've found out, like first person shooter games and stuff like that you see with like doom or, or I guess more modern games, like a four.

Was Fortnite a first person. I think it's a third person. Well, do good remade recently. So that's still a plus. Yeah. So half-life do them all at all of the characters Counterstrike. Oh yeah. I used to, yeah, yeah, yeah. Back like when I was 12.

Um, yeah. So these, these video games, they deal with a lot of like. Accuracy and aiming and things like that in the video game itself. And what they find is this, that their, their perception of discriminating visual distances is actually increased. If I recall from the research, they're like, they're little things like that, that they're really matter.

Uh, and, and I think they matter more because, uh, the fact that video games gets such a bad rep amongst parents, uh, and. They're a great learning tool. They teach moral lessons, even if you're playing video games that are like story, video games, that sort of thing. It depends a lot on what you might type of material and content that you engage in.

Because I think that the, just like it would in the real world, uh, the material that you consume is going to impact different regions of your being probably differently. And so if you're doing something like a systems management game or an economics came. Kind of like remote world or civilization or any of these weird games, um, weird weirdly fun games, uh, then, and then, uh, it, it will probably impact you differently than a first person shooter.

Yeah. Yeah. Um, going more toward the organizational, you know, side of things. Um, so a lot of people right now are forced to, you know, all of a sudden, um, work from home. Where they've been, you know, working in the office, obviously for, you know, for years. Um, what is this sort of, you know, do you have any sort of strategies or tips as far as making the transition easier?

There's a number of things I'd like to touch on with regards to this. I mean, you have people that are going to be finding this as struggle, and then you have people who are really going to be thriving in this environment. And I think we're hearing a lot about the people who are struggling in this environment, but we should also pay attention to those who are thriving.

I think that there's a lot of people that, for example, who have, are developmentally divergent or Intel or cognitively divergent people, so people with. Things like autism and Asperger's and that sort of thing. And people who were just happened to be introverts that are doing fantastic right now, these people have something to probably offer and they, they should probably make, make it known that they're doing okay.

And yeah. And you know, I think when we're talking about communities like the office space or your social community, whatever one, you have to understand that. If you have something to give to your community, if you're particularly thriving right now, and you understand that people are not around you or in your circle, um, you, it would be beneficial for you to reach out to those people right now.

So those, if you are introverted, I would encourage you and you're thriving and you're thriving. I would encourage you that, you know, kind of reach out to people right now, you know? Maybe let some extroverts bend your ear because it, it, it may be nice for them to do that once in a while. Um, but I think it's also too good to let your office know that you actually are doing really well in these sorts of environments.

Because if these people, these people, right, who are often more quiet or have trouble expressing themselves, um, if they don't get heard by their office, if they're not getting heard by their leaders, then. When all this is over, there's less likelihood that things are going to be going in their favor. And I think it's important that we try and be inclusive of everybody at the end of the day.

So I know a lot of offices and there's within society broadly speaking, there's this kind of stigma towards, Oh, we love extroverts here. And it's like, cause they're good team players and that's, that's not necessarily true with regards to things. If you can be a fantastic employee. I mean an employee, fantastic employee at what you do and not be an extrovert there's even data that shows that salespeople, one of the most, you would presume extroverted occupations in the world would probably, uh, are actually better staff than people who are known as ambiverts.

So people who are not too extroverted are not too introverted, but they're going to be averted in the middle. Um, so. That's that side of the equation there. And, um, with regards to tips and tricks, I guess, for getting, getting you through that, um, it depends on what your company is doing right now. There are some companies that are really under the gun or they're in crunch mode.

They're, they're kind of pushing their employees to, to, you know, do more, do more, do more. And there are other companies that are. Really slowing down right now. And, and, and, and that sort of thing, if you don't have the opportunity, I don't know how good this advice is going to be, but, uh, make sure that you set boundaries for yourself.

And, uh, you know, you can't just put your nose to the grindstone forever and expect that things are going to be okay. Uh, I know people have a tendency. Sometimes, sometimes they to throw themselves into their work as a means of coping. And that'll only go for so far, right. Um, you have to, you have to have multiple outlets for your, for, for your, the way that you're coping with regards to things.

Um, especially given that professional oriented coping is not likely to actually resolve the problems that you're dealing with. So, you know, if you're socially deprived and you're dealing with your problems, that by throwing yourself into your work, and you're not engaging with your, with people socially, You're not meeting those needs that are not being met.

And you probably would benefit from more breaks with coworkers or friends, or like zoom breaks with coworkers or friends. Um, so be aware of your limitations, be aware of how much time you're spending on doing things. I know that people also, according to the research, they have more of a tendency to actually, uh, work longer when they're working from home than they do.

And the office I can attest to that. It's, it's, it's one of those things that it's funny, cause micromanagers are, have a tendency to believe quite the polar opposite of what research is showing, uh, with regards to this stuff that can, their employees won't work as hard, or they won't work as well without them.

And I think by and large. You're going to see a lot of struggling. My micromanager is trying to understand and cope with the situation. Uh, and, and this might be reflected in the fact that you are stemmed from the fact that they have a very low appreciation for. How well, people tend to function autonomously, and I'm not not saying everybody, but people who are knowledgeable and good at what they do, they don't need a whole lot of handholding all the time with what they're doing.

In fact, I would say, you know, within, with some caveats that if you have somebody who's, you know, uh, an employee with your organization and they're, they cannot work independently at all, like, or else they're like. Sleeping on the job or doing like goofing around on Facebook all day. Yeah. Those people should probably shouldn't be with your company anyway, because they're not, they're not actually motivated to do the work at all.

They're probably not interested in the work at all. And they don't seem like they're getting the work done on their own time. So not on their own time, but company time, but on there without supervision. So if you have to supervise these people all day, every day, anyway, it's probably not worth it. It's probably not having that employee with you.

Uh, and to be Frank, it's probably more of a benefit for these people to find work that they're actually passionately interested in if they can find it. So not saying to fire these people, but I would probably want to have a conversation with these people and to understand what's going on and they just aren't a fit, then they aren't a fit and that's okay.

But they're probably a better fit elsewhere too. Yeah. Yeah. So. I mean, I'm kind of going on a tangent here with the question, but yeah. Yeah. With regards to remote work, uh, be, be aware of your own boundaries. Don't be aware of the time that you put into things, uh, prioritize your needs, uh, especially in this sort of circumstance.

Like I know it's understandable that many people feel. Especially those who are immunocompromised or have breathing problems that that would be put them at higher risk for COVID that they feel like they have to socially isolate. Um, and by and large I'm socially isolating. Uh, I don't really go out unless I have to get groceries.

Uh, so I do empathize that, uh, but there are ways to meet your needs and I like good one that we're doing right now, uh, is like a social being social. Uh, distancing and social isolation tends to make people, you know, have social deprivation and I've dove into podcasting with people I've broadcasting with you today.

I'm trying to make a lot of social connections with people and totally think that this is just one way of fulfilling those needs, uh, that, that. It's not typical. It's something that actually is something that I, I have to stretch myself, which is good in a lot of ways. I have to learn some new things with regards to podcasting.

Yeah. And, uh, but it's a way of, it's a way of meeting needs that would otherwise be frustrated. And so consider what you're dealing with. What are you really struggling with? And I know that the traditional routes by which you can achieve those. Needs are may be blocked right now, but how can you work around those roadblocks?

Yeah, that's sort of like a, a beautiful, you know, note too, to maybe end this interview on, you know, and then on a high note, Um, is there any, uh, any sort of parting words anywhere you want to direct people obviously we'll, uh, link your website down below? Um, yeah. Yeah. Uh, I mean, I just, I think that right now we're going through something that is unprecedented and a lot of people are looking for answers and I hesitate to say that we should look for COVID specific answers.

At a time like this. And I think everybody, a lot of people are looking for COVID specific answers at a time like this because we're in an unprecedented time. So why not do that? But the fact of the matter is, is data is just isn't there. And we live in historical context where, you know, the news media and the government plans may be changing from one week to the next one day next.

And it's almost impossible to make. Plans, uh, when things keep changing and when things are completely unknown. So what do you do in that circumstance? And I S my, my strongest recommendation is to rely on evidence based on what we know and, you know, psychology, social science, behavioral science, organizational behavior, behavioral economics, all of this, all of these are schools of thought, mountains of data, mountains of information that tell you how you can navigate.

Through these tough times. Uh, even though they're not necessarily these exact times, uh, so I've done, you know, a boat I spent about 10 years or so or more studying adversity, trauma, uh, and stressful in the workplace and in family systems and outside of the workplace. There's a lot of information that's out there.

Uh, and I strongly recommend that you take advantage of it and talk to people who know what they're talking about. Um, yeah, I'm, I'm happy to have a conversation with anybody. Not just in a let's build business context, but to have a human conversation with somebody. Uh, and, and if, if you want to reach out to me, you can do that either through my website.

Uh, there's a, there's an email us button that shoots an email to me or my, my business partner or anybody in our company. And there's another way that you can reach out to me on Twitter or LinkedIn. And, uh, I'm, I'm sure that we can put that those links in the show notes as well. Uh, my Twitter is, uh, a underscore J underscore holiday.

And, uh, my, uh, LinkedIn, I believe is, uh, Aaron holiday PhD. So feel free to reach out. I'm more than happy to help you in whatever way I can. Yeah. And we'll link it all in the show notes, uh, for sure. But yeah. Thank you so much for coming on the show today and yeah, you have a great day. All right. Bye. Thank you.

Bye. All right. This was the first episode of the addicted to learning podcast. Thanks so much for tuning in today and until next week.