Today I had the pleasure to speak with Matthias Bohlen from "Get the Audience". "Get the Audience" is a tool for creators and founders to map out audience to target for growth on Twitter.

Some things we talk about:
• how to grow an audience
• when to niche down versus to explore
• the difference between audience, community and a customer


Support our guest by checking out his podcast - The Audience Explorer on Apple Podcasts and Spotify, and check out his website at:

You can also find Matthias on Twitter @GetTheAudience


Then I call this the fuse process F U S E right. Find understand to DECT engage. Um, community is a totally different beast. I think an audience is basically a number of interested people, but a community is something where those people, uh, start to interact. They care for each other pleasure of talking to Mathias from get the audience, get the audience as a tool for creators and founders to map out whose audiences to target for growth on Twitter.

We talked about, well, how to grow an audience. About when to niche down versus explore the difference between an audience and a community and a customer and mud hope you guys enjoy. Yeah. Mathias from get the audience. Thank you so much for coming. Thanks for having me, you guys, for sure. And we're just talking about, um, You know, audiences, uh, building an audience online.

Um, maybe the first question to get started is what is an audience Mathias, an audience? Well, um, for, um, For an entrepreneur or for a creative, for example, like a book writer or a podcaster or something, someone like this, or entrepreneurs like startups or like yeah. Like all that, um, they need an audience in the sense of somebody has to buy them.

Their products and services or their creations like books, or it has to listen to their podcasts. Um, so basically an audience is, um, are those people who are interested in what you have to say in what you have to sell potentially. So they become more so your customers, uh, but audience and customers is not, it's not the same.

Thing. Um, often it starts with the first idea for an audience that let's say you want to do something in the food delivery market. Uh, then you think about people who need food. So people who need food would be your first idea of an audience. Um, at that point in time, you have zero customers. Um, so audience had customers it's not the same.

Think audiences, the people who care about what you have to offer, that's a good one. People care about what you have to offer people that care about what you have to say. Um, yeah. Which, which kind of brings me to the whole audience versus community aspect. Um, because correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it that most people.

Want community these days and, you know, want to feel heard, want to feel part of a part of a tribe, part of a group. Yeah, yeah. Right. That, that's a really difficult thing. I tried to build community, for example, with my. One of those previous startups who have failed. Um, I try to at least five or six. Yeah, no.

I had to build a community and community building. It's really hard. That's why I totally admire persons like, um, uh, Rosie, Sherry, for example, who does that for indie hackers? Um, community is a totally different beast. I think. And an audience is basically a number of interested people, but a community is something where those people, uh, start to interact.

They care for each other. They show up everyday because the communities interesting for them, the community gives them a feeling of home. As you already said of belonging. Um, So this is, this is again one step more, I think, um, from, from an audience. Yeah. And, um, I'm just thinking, because, um, you know, this, this whole podcasting thing, um, is also kind of a selfish thing.

Cause I get to, you know, talk to interesting people to, to learn from, um, isn't um, basically a community of like-minded people, the, the ultimate. Th the highest level of having an audience cause it's no longer, uh, Many to one, but it's kind of like a many to many relationship. If, if you know what I mean? Uh it's um, it's, it's really, yeah.

It's even more than an audience, an audience. Um, uh, Arvik puts it there, there are unidirectional audiences, like a singer on a stage. Uh, they are singing and the audience is listening. That's it? And there's a bi-directional audience kind of way. People talk back to the artist or to the creator or to the entrepreneur.

Um, and. Um, the, the, the creator starts interacting with, uh, their audience communities. Even more people start interacting with each other, uh, members of the community. Uh, they care about each other. For example, on, on Twitter, I have my Twitter feed and I have, uh, some people I marked them, uh, with, um, With this option, uh, send me a notification when, when a new tweet arrived from that person.

So these are only, I don't know, five maximum 10 people. I don't think so. Uh, so I, this is, uh, quasi my, my community, uh, where I listened to. We actually, whereas I have, uh, I think, uh, 700, no, five, 500 followers and 700 people that I follow. Uh, this is not my community. This is a part of my audience.

Communities is much more than audience, I think, for sure, for sure. And, um, How do we, yeah, I mean, we could talk about this for hours, but like, how do we find an audience? How do we find our audience? That's that's tricky. Um, I had, um, it was my previous startups. I had, um, problems finding my audience and it always failed because of that.

Um, I had something to, um, To to build. I built it and it's really the stereotypical, uh, um, field of dreams thing. Right. Build it. And they will come. Um, and it's of course it's not. So you build something and nobody cares and, uh, you have to really find your audience first. And then finally, I thought, why shouldn't I build something to find audiences?

Right because I have so much, so many problems with that. I, I thought there must be a, another solution to this. And, um, because I'm an avid Twitter user. So what, uh, how, how could we find, for example, our audience on Twitter? Let's say you want to do something in the food delivery market. Um, so your foot, you would go on Twitter and simply search for delivering food or something like that.

Problem with Twitter is you get all kinds of, uh, irrelevant results. Some of them are relevant. You start exploring, you can click on the people, you click on the tweet. Um, but most of it is, is irrelevant and you have to sort out all this. And, um, but it, it, it basically works. For example, in one of my posts, I told the story when, when I, um, W, uh, simply searched for, um, beekeepers hobby, beekeepers, and suddenly I found the British beekeepers association, the Scottish beekeepers, um, some from America people posting about problems that these can have with their health and.

All kinds of things. So you basically get, uh, an initial kind of, um, hits, uh, where you think, Oh, this is interesting. You start following people, you start interacting with. Um, um, and after a while you find out, let's say. 10 people, 10 Twitter accounts where you say, okay, this seems to make a group. They are referencing each other.

They're mentioning each other. They are talking to each other and you think, okay, this could be a group within my audience. And so I go there, I answer that tweet. I reply to that with I retweet them, um, and more and more I become part of that audience. Um, so it's difficult. Uh, it begins with searching or finding a van.

I call this the fuse process F U S E right. Find understand. So direct engage. All right. So first I find some random pupil somewhere. I try to understand them, whether they really talk about the problem I want to solve, or maybe they talk about totally different problems. I didn't think about. And then when I think I have understood enough, I select some of those people I want to really work with.

I want to have a closer relationship with interact with, uh, and finally, uh, I engage with them and start replaying, start mentioning, start talking to them. For example, I go to the DMS, uh, the direct messages and, uh, we have a closer conversation or even we hop on zoom like we do today. And, um, Uh, we get a totally different kind of, uh, cluster interaction.

So I'm sure I've quoted this a fuse acronym. And, um, so is it fair to say that we want to start out fairly broad and then go, uh, more and more niche? Hmm, I don't think so. I, I, I think it works better, uh, or the other way round we start niche. Um, for example, with, with, get the audience, I wanted to create a product that helps entrepreneurs like indie hackers to find an indirect with their first audience.

And, um, After a while people said to me, look, your product could be useful to totally other audiences. For example, what about the social media managers of red bull, a big brand, right? Could use your tool to understand their audience. And I said, yeah, that would be possible. But if I wanted to address them, I would have to totally change my whole marketing, my positioning, everything, my, my messaging, uh, when I wanted to talk like big companies like McDonald's or red bull it's would be a totally different thing, but I think it's, it's good to start in a niche.

Get your product in order, for example, my I increasing I'm increasing the product quality now. Um, I'm trying to get everything settled before I go big. Right. For sure. For sure. And, um, obviously with yourself, it's a classic, uh, The classic story of, you know, solving your own problem, scratching your own age, um, which led you to then, um, starting, uh, get the audience, um, But, but what would you advise, maybe say a younger, any hacker, just starting out who doesn't necessarily have a problem, you know, to, to fix for themselves, but you know, who are technical, who want to.

Uh, you know, make a software product, some kind of solution to fix problems, to help people. Um, but they don't have this organic, you know, history, this organic background. How, how do you recommend they start? Well, um, I recently heard, uh, I read some, some tweets from a guy from Holland, Toronto, very much in the neighborhood.

Um, Uh, he wrote a hit, I think his name is Gemma P yeah. Gemma P is also his, uh, Twitter handle. Um, and he, he, uh, said, simply look around on your table, look at the things on your table. Okay. There's a camera here. There's a switchboard for my video equipment. There are some pencils, uh, colorful pencils where I draw things.

And so on all kinds of things on my table, then imagine who has made these things. Okay. And who was using these things? Ah, what problems are these people having that you are using these things? Uh, so the, the main idea is start with yourself and the things around you, because it's highly likely that you will find a problem that is unsolved only because you are already part of something.

Right. You are already part of an environment, uh, that has, or could point out some, some problems. This is what I did totally wrong with the previous startups. I tried to solve some problems for people that I don't know that I even don't know. I even don't, I can't judge those problems. So, um, why not start with my own environment?

Um, And, um, if there was also this, this person called KP, he calls himself KP on Twitter and it says, Twitter handle is, this is KP. This his name is much more complicated because he comes from India. Uh, but um, he said solving problems of an audience that you are not part of is a Cardinal sin. I would say what,

and it's kind of like that you're, you're doing something of which you have no idea about. So it makes sense to start with yourself, the things around you. For example, if you are a video enthusiast, why not solve video problems? If you are food enthusiastic, why not solve food problems? So really start with yourself and the things around you.

I found it very good. Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. That reminds me of, uh, one of my own, uh, uh, personal, you know, startup failures. I was, uh, trying to make software for tax accountants to, to, to automate a certain part of their work. And, um, granted, my dad is a tax accountant, but, uh, so I had some insight into the whole process and some there, there was a, there was a link there, but.

At the end of the day. Am I passionate? Am I enthusiastic about tax accountant and Texas? I'm really not. I couldn't care less. That's it? The energy is the next problem. You may have the energy in the beginning because you're starting something. Right? So if the energy comes from starting something, not from the subject matter.

And after three weeks after six weeks after nine weeks, you think, Oh, how long does it. This take until I get my first users until I get my first customers and that the energy is going away. So it's much better to start with the subject where the energy comes from the topic itself and not from starting something.

Exactly. Exactly. You nailed it. That is my, my biggest takeaway from that, you know, failure. Yeah. Hmm. I'm sure for sure. And then, um, kind of like related to this, how do we know, um, Cause, cause you said, uh, it's best to start very niche. Um, and, um, you know, to engage, engage the niche audience. Um, how do we, how do we know when we found our niche?

Hm that's a, that's a difficult question. Um, Because you can make many mistakes there. Um, I can tell you one story when I started in, what was it? October 25. Yeah. I'll never forget that date because the latest, the audience's native side of it, I found it, um, October 25, I started zero followers. No idea about, uh, whether it would work or not.

I put out a landing page, um, with. No software behind it. Uh, and there, there was no product yet with simply an announcement that said, I want to solve, find your audience and so on. And, uh, I put a button on it, seeing a signup here for early access and people started to sign up. Um, but the F the product, uh, was not announced as a paid product yet.

So people didn't know how much will it cost later? Um, the effect was that RO I think 40 people or so signed up. Um, and I thought, Oh, I may have found something. And I started building, so I did the first version, I think about one month or so. Uh, after one month it was running. And, um, then really? Yeah, people signed up, uh, also for this free version and started to work with it.

After a while when everything started working really well, I made it a paid product because one person signed up on Gumroad, uh, and paid $5. Gumroad has this tricky option that says pay $0 or more. And this person decided to pay more than $5. And I thought, okay, yeah. Time to make it paid. And suddenly the engagement went down, uh, because when people have to pay for something, they think twice.

Right. They start to think twice. And, um, so is it still at the moment? I think I have six paying customers. Yes. Only six. And I sometimes ask myself, is it already working or are you fantasizing? So it's really a question. Did you find your audience yet or not? Um, on Twitter, I have very good interaction with, uh, with my followers, with the people around me.

Um, Uh, recently someone made me think, um, was it, um, a guy who posted build a business, not an audience, but it was a provocative title. Oh, Jacob some, uh, Jacob. Someone. Yeah, I read that too. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, he said this audience thing is partly bullshit, right? It's um, it's because, um, the, the audience are not your customers.

The audience may, might be only the people you entertain. And I said, Oh, shock. Right. I was really shocked when I read that. I thought, Hey, let's not fool ourselves. Um, People who stay with me because I post regularly because I build in public. I always share my metrics each night and so on. Um, maybe they are only with me because this is good and not because they liked the product.

This is a different thing. Um, so I think I have at least two, two, uh, groups of people in my audience, uh, the customers who really. Want to pay and want to use the product and, uh, the rest of the audience who, who, uh, enjoy watching me as a standard fonder, but that's a, that's a different thing, right? Yeah.

So it's, uh, I think, um, it's the old, um, icky wheezy thing. I know it when I see it. Um, I think, uh, when really when this effect kicks in that that people start to buy the product in, in larger numbers, I think then I can say, okay, I have found my audience, but at the moment, I, I, I'm not sure yet. Yeah, like this is really something, this, this article, um, build a business, not an audience really made me think also because, um, at the end of the day, for, for, for any hackers, the goal is to, to build a sustainable business.

Um, You know, the goal is not to, uh, quote unquote entertain people online. Yeah. Um, it's really tricky. Um, what, um, the week before that I think, or two weeks before I had Arbit on my podcast and we were discussing this whole audience thing and this whole audience, first thing, uh, because in, in German we have different words for the word first, uh, one more temporal.

Uh, in the first in time, uh, and the other is first and foremost, something like put someone in the foreground, right. And audience first it's more like putting someone in the foreground, the audience, um, but many, many people, uh, they interpret, uh, audience first in the temporal sense, build your audience first and then sell them your product.

And I think this is wrong. This is totally wrong. Um, My audience are those people who even don't know me, but whom I already think about. Right. And I want to make them think about me or my product. Hmm. Uh, there was Seth Godin. I think there's great marketer who, or there is, he's still alive. Um, Seth Godin's said marketing is, is earning trust at scale.

How cool is that right? This is really what I want. I want lots and lots of people to trust me and my product. This would be the ideal thing. Yeah. Yeah. Which then that leads me to think about, um, you know, the intersection between users or potential users, um, your audience and your community, because there there's a lot of overlap between those three, but they're not the same.

No, it's kind of, if you could draw intersecting circles, right? One circle of customers, one circle of a general audience and one circle of, um, community, community circle would be smaller. Customer circle would be smaller, but the audience search, it could be pretty big. Exactly. Exactly. And that is the. Um, I guess that will be your, um, what Kevin Kelly calls your, your super fans or a true fans, or, you know, this article, right.

A thousand true fans. Thousands of fans, right? Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah, I mean, speaking of all of this, um, what's your take on multiple audiences? Um, I know you have two different Twitter accounts, you have two different, um, you know, PR personas, uh, identities, if you will, um, maybe talk to us about this for a bit.

This is an interesting thing because it's quite as causing a split brain in my head.

Um, I have a history as a software engineering guy. So I started out as a software developer. I created my first paid product at the age of 21. That's incredible. 40 years ago. Ready? Um, I wrote a compiler for an ancient microprocessor, uh, the a 68,000, the first Apple computers. No, they're not the first, the Apple one with purpose three 65 or two, but, uh, Not the attitude, sorry, but the later the liter and, um, what was the one?

The first Mac I think was, was built with a 68,000 site many, many years ago, even before the IBM PC. Wow. Um, and I wrote a compiler because there was none. I say ideal situation. You write a product where there's nothing and people started using it. I sold it to a small company. In Germany and people in the industry started, uh, to, uh, write programs for, for, um, process control, for example, in calling and, uh, controlling and just your processes like robots or chemical processes or whatever.

And, um, That was my first. Yeah, that's what my, my first development job that was freelance. My second one, I went, uh, as an employee to a very small company, only eight people in size. When I came, uh, my, my boss had this tiny little baby one year old on his lap while he was hacking the code right now, we were all were hacking in his living room.

And, um, it was, it was a great time. It's such a small company. Um, and we were creating a CAD cam systems, uh, computerated design, computerated manufacturing systems. Um, at the end you could, uh, Create something like, um, you want to equip a bank with, um, with, um, power outlets, um, heating, uh, air condition, uh, all kinds of things.

And at the end you press a button and a big list of things to buy comes out. Right. In Germany, reading, we say a shtick list of big things, of the big list of things to, to buy and to put into the bank. So it was a kind of a planning, architecture, planning thing. And what I learned too, during those, I think 10, 12 years, uh, was how do users behave?

How, what is really software engineering? Like what is it like to be a software developer to write good products for, for large number of people? Great. And at the end of all of that, um, my. Uh, our software product got, uh, adaptable and was used in projects, for example, in a big project for machines, um, that manufacturer these, uh, printed circuit boards for mobile phones.

The first Nokia phones had. I had so printed boards in it, in it, in them. And, uh, one of our customers had had, um, big equipment that was manufacturing, these printed circuit boards, and that equipment was planned with our system, with our software. So we became pretty. I'm engaged in bigger projects. And my boss came to me and said, Martinez, go out to this customer, uh, get him out of the swamp.

He is a big problem now. So, Oh boy. Previously I, I sat down on my, on my, at my desk. I'd been sitting there for 10 years hacking code and suddenly I should go out to customers. Oh, how cool is that house carrying? Is that? And I went to them and you really, they weren't a big mess because somebody had created this mess.

And, um, I ask them for the problems I acted rather than they easily, I listed all the problems on the whiteboard. And then we numbered the problems with the most critical what's the number one, the next one, the number two, and so on until a number of 10 or 15. Um, and on the evening of that day, uh, the customer was pretty happy, although none of those problems were already solved.

So I thought what's happening here. Maybe I have a talent for consulting and yes, I continued for one and a half years in that project and I solved, I helped this customer solve his problems. Uh, so everything was fine again. And, um, so I, I quit that company went to a real consulting company, kind of also a small thing, kind of 130 people or so, um, And after a while they came this, uh, in Germany, there was this new market around, uh, 2000, 2001, this big stock exchange event where all of the smaller companies thought, yeah, let's go to the stock exchange.

Let's become publicly, uh, offering let's make a public offering and so on. So everybody wanted to be on the stock exchange. And I, I sat there until nine o'clock in the night, preparing stories for the stock exchange analysts. Uh what's what's this, the thing I came for, um, and the answer was obviously, no, I was I'm here to, to solve problems for people I'm here to, to maybe to write some software, to implement some software.

So that was the time when I became freelance again. That's my current job as a freelance consultant for a software engineering methods. So I spend time with some engineering teams who want to create good stuff, come out in time and don't lose their mind in the process. All right. And just also help them with software architecture with HR methods, like combats from everything.

No, not so much, so many more. Um, but, um, I like to be this software engineering guy, but after a while, I became also obsessed with startups because I'm in my ego. Number one. So, so to say I'm first to admit my first persona inside, I am, uh, um, very much associated with corporate. So with the big companies who have big engineering teams to create something, and these big companies have their own challenges and limitations.

For example, they move quite slowly because they are such big. Um, so, well, I became rather obsessed with target apps because as a startup, you can really, really move fast. You don't have many restrictions, many constraints. Um, And I ended up here becoming an India because as a one person, um, entity, you can even move faster.

This is what fascinated me. And now I realized, Hey, if I do all this on the same Twitter account of the old things that I have since 2009 or so, I will alienate my first audience. My software engineering, big company, enterprisey, uh, stuff, audience. So I created a second Twitter account and called it, get your audience first.

Um, and I tried to make it like a product after a while. I realized now when I do it like this, I will alienate the indie hacker audience for which I write, uh, this new product. Um, so. Invented some middle thing. And I called the account materials from get the audience. So the Twitter account is basically a mixture of my second persona in sight and my product.

So this seems to, this seems to work rather well, people associate or respond rather well to this personality. Do you think it's easier to sell the big companies or to small companies? I think smallest easier, um, with big companies you'll make much more money, um, or you could make much more money, but it takes the sales process can take really, really long.

For example, your contact somebody and this person is, um, let's say, um, enthusiastic. They say, yeah, I go with product while I like it. And so on. But. Until this person is allowed to buy anything. They have to jump through all kinds of hoops. They need to ask the boss, they need your, uh, they need to ask their purchasing department.

They need to look into their purchasing rules and so on. Am I allowed to buy something from a one-person company? Oh, no, probably not. So, yeah. Interacting with big enterprises can be, become really difficult. Um, but yeah, other way around selling two to two small companies is also very difficult because they don't like to spend so much money.

So you have to have a much larger number of customers when you start to small customers. So maybe right in the middle would be nice. Uh, I heard this turn. What was it again? So there's B2B B to C and beat a, what was it? B to BC or something? Um, which is this right in the middle rate when you're selling to, for instance, freelancers.

Right? So. They are in a way, small businesses. Um, but they're willing to spend a lot more money and invest a lot more into their business than just like a B to C. You know, person that doesn't run a business. Yeah. I kind of ideal because they know exactly when to spend money and when not to spend. Yeah.

I'm a freelancer myself. And for example, when I started getting the audience, I thought I need a, maybe I need a podcast. Okay. A podcast, or needs a podcasting, a hosting service. So I decided to pay for transistor. Um, or when I tweet on Twitter, I need something to schedule my tweets. So I decided to spend money on hype theory.

Um, I make very conscious and very quick purchasing decisions. It doesn't take a long time. And those two, just to, just to intersect, uh, jump in here real quick. Those two tools are also the perfect examples for, um, audience first. Uh, not just audiences but communities because, uh, I myself use a transistor.

And those guys are so, uh, popular. So well-known within the, any hacker community that almost almost as a, as a thank you of sorts. Um, I'm willing to go with transistor over other podcast hosts. Yeah. Yeah. It really feels like an identity, like an identity, Justin, as an identity thing, Justin, as a person, for example, who, who is a lot behind this transistor service, you can feel just in it.

So it's really easy to feel. Um, it's not like a big company thing where you're doing know the people who are behind it. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And you are almost wearing it, um, as a, as a badge of sorts, uh, in the sense that, you know, Kind of like, kind of like going with transistor, um, odds are, you know, you're also an indie hacker or somehow, you know, to do in that, you know, in that realm.

Yeah, for sure. Um, for sure. Um, yeah. Uh, let's see that I have any other questions. Yeah, maybe, maybe one last, uh, one last question for you. I would like to hear your opinion on this. Um, how do we know? Um, As far as exploring. Um, I feel like I was, uh, I started talking about this earlier, but how do we know about, uh, when it's time?

To, um, to stop exploring and to know, did I ask this question already and to niche down? I didn't. Okay. Maybe I had in my, in my mind anyways, you know what I mean? Yeah. It's, it's the, the, the question around the pivot, um, Yeah. How do you know that? Hmm, that's difficult to answer. I had a lady on my podcast who had, um, um, a WordPress, um, related business.

She writes a plugin that allows you to post, to send blog posts as newsletters. Right. So kind of substitute for WordPress, quite new to the newsletter glue. Yeah. That's the name of the plugin. Um, and she, uh, tells the story of her pivot. Um, the, they began as a rather big thing around WordPress and, uh, this didn't succeed very well.

And, but she noticed that the newsletter sending component of this bigger thing was, uh, was valuable. And this. Well could work well. So they niched down into new this newsletter sending thing. Um, and so they became much more, much smaller. She ended up a co-founder um, and this worked well. So sometimes it's better to niche down.

Um, I think the startup literature quotes that zoom in pivot. Yeah, pivot. And sometimes it's better to zoom out right. And say, okay, I have started very small and I see some potential around this. Maybe I should become big. For example, recently, one of my, um, um, users, uh, said, um, your tool is for audience exploring, understanding, selecting, engaging, and so on.

How about doing something right? Tweeting for them or becoming members of a list, uh, and so on. So, so right operations on Twitter, I've not read operations. Um, and I said, um, at the moment, I'm quite happy with this analysis aspect, understanding aspect. Um, but he was basically suggesting to zoom out and become bigger, like a social media, everything.

Um, it's, it's difficult to decide when to zoom in when to zoom out it, so context dependent. I think there are no hard and fast rules. Yeah. It always starts with a moment when you notice something's not working here. Right? So this I must become smaller or I must become bigger to, to really, to have something that makes sense.

For sure for sure. And this is where this is where I'm at right now. I'm just exploring a bunch of different, uh, areas. And sort of like throwing, I'm throwing a lot of stuff, you know, um, at the wall to see what sticks, right? Yeah. No, because you're a business. Uh, because, so, um, so right now, the last one I was mentioning was that the tax accountant thing and, um, that really made me realize it has to be.

Uh, it has to come from within, I can't just, um, I can't just, you know, find, uh, you know, find a problem in the market that needs solving. Um, you know, um, unless I'm, um, invested like, like you said, unless I'm invested in that audience myself, unless I'm part of that audience myself, it won't work because it'll take months and most likely years for this business to be truly successful.

Um, so this is why right now, um, I'm exploring, um, you know, health, the future of healthcare. Um, because I'm sort of, uh, you know, uh, a biohacker of sorts myself, I'm really into, you know, healthy living and yeah. Using technology, you know, quantify itself to, to be healthier. Yeah. So, so that's a huge, uh, area I'm exploring aware.

Um, Obviously there's tons of demand as well, because you know, people go at least spend money on, on getting healthier. Um, yeah. And then other areas I'm exploring are, um, psychology and real estate. Which seemingly have like nothing in common, um, combination. Yeah. Relate psychology and real estate. How does that relate?

I don't don't know. I couldn't tell you. I just know those are big, um, subjects have been big subjects in my life. I even went to college for psychology for a year and a half. Um, Um, and then obviously psychology in the, in the realm of business will be, you know, persuasion, sales, even marketing at the end of the day that is applied to psychology.

So it's highly relevant. Um, and then with real estate, it's, it's, it's weird because I always feel drawn to real estate. Um, and I, I, I know. I know a lot about real estate and, uh, granted also, I, you know, my mom works in real estate, so again, it's not super farfetched, but, um, I it's, it's, it's one of those things where, you know, when I, when I see, uh, when, uh, you know, when I see an old building, you know, especially here in Berlin, like there's a lot of, you know, Construction happening.

Um, you know, I see, I see an old building or maybe I see a new building and I'm instantly in my head, I'm running the math. I'm like, okay. How many units, how much did they spend on renovation? Hmm. Okay. How, how, how, how much money did they spend on the land? Okay. What's their ROI. Okay. How much leverage did they apply it?

And I'm, and I'm doing all those things in my head subconsciously. Um, so this is all to say, you know, th there's a huge interest there and also a lot of knowledge already, so. Okay. Yeah. And, and I'm, you know, I'm just kind of exploring right now and, um, um, like you said, I'm sure the whole, um, I think we, we, uh, we get successful by, uh, making a lot and.

And, you know, a lot of output, the more, the more quantity of something we, we put out there, the more we put out there, the more. The like, we get good by making a lot. That's what I want to say. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. That's right. The, the old, what was it? The pottery example, right? Where the professor made two groups, uh, create pottery one day.

One day told, um, you have to be perfect. The part has to be perfect at the end and the other ones, uh, yeah. Create until you have something perfect. And suddenly the second group was much more successful than the first group. Exactly, exactly. Yeah. And at the end of the day, this is what I'm doing with the podcast as well.

You know, I'm just, I'm calling up interesting people. I'm just trying to learn, trying to, you know, share, uh, my learnings, this whole, you know, learning in public. You know what I was, I'm building in public learning in public. Um, and I'm sure, you know, over the next, you know, six months, 12 months, uh, something good will come of it.

I'm I'm sure I'm convinced loom. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. It sounds like the two, there are two ideas where, where your energy can come from now. That's just sink that in and wait until. The unite somehow. Exactly. And I'll, and I'll, uh, you know, I'll use your tool to like, you know, find out about audiences. Oh, this would be interesting for me when, when you use it, uh, please tell me about it.

How, how it's working for you because psychology and real estate might be at first two different audiences. And, um, this is, this is interesting how that will work out for you. Like read about that. Yeah. I read about maybe last thing real quick, um, because you know, then I'll let you go. Um, uh, there's this concept I read about, um, the personal monopoly, um, which is this idea?

Uh, I think originally it was this guy Neval Rob Robuchon that came up with it, but I'm not sure. Um, That you want to get so good at, um, you know, the intersection of a couple of different, uh, subjects, topics that you're basically the only one able to do the only one on this planet able to do the work that you're doing.

Um, and examples, uh, for that would be someone like Tim Ferris or Joe Rogan, where it's like people listen to Tim Ferris because he's Tim Ferriss. And because of the way he approaches things and his Tim Ferris, like way. Yeah, right. You know, like no one can compete with Tim Ferriss because he is Tim Ferris.

Yeah. Um, so, um, yeah, which is, you know, this is obviously one of those things much easier said than done. Um, but I think it, yeah. Yeah. Um, but I think it's something worth striving for, and the idea of, um, outsourcing things you aren't. You know, uniquely suited for the, for instance, I just got a, um, I got, uh, I hired someone part-time to help me with podcasts and video editing and that freed up so much of my time.

And I'm just so incredibly happy that I did it. Because it's something, you know, I'm not uniquely good at. I don't enjoy either. So it's perfect that I no longer have to do it. And I have more time to, you know, record podcasts or, um, you know, reach out to potential guests or, um, you know, learn about, you know, those subjects.

So. Um, to, to, to approach this pool. That's cool. What do they do for you? They edit the podcast and they transcribe it or what do they do? Yeah. Yeah. Um, podcasts, editing, video, editing, transcription. Um, What else? They also do the podcast art. Yeah. Pretty cool. Didn't know that. Yeah. This is because this is costing me much time to, uh, I like to record the podcast to interact with people, but then yeah, exactly.

It's just necessary thing. Exactly. And it comes back down to the whole, um, energy thing, you know, it just recording podcasts, um, reaching out to, to interesting people. I love it. You know, it gives me energy, but, um, you know, editing, uploading, you know, transcribing that stuff. It's like, it's a drag, you know?

Yeah. That's correct. Even with the tool I use, uh, descript, for example, uh, it's a tool that transcribes to text and then you edit the text and the tool edits the audio. It's pretty amazing. The liter word. And in the audio, it becomes deleted. Oh, wow. Right. It's it's not so complex anymore. I was cutting with editing the, the audio, but you edit the text instead.

This is pretty amazing. You can even insert a word with my own voice, so dangerous. Right. But, um, I, I use that tool a lot because it makes editing simpler. Uh, but I still don't get energy from podcast editing. No, no, no.

Oh, well Martinez, thank you so much for, for our conversation today. Yeah. Uh, thank you for having me, Gabriel, interesting things that you do, and I wish you good luck for your, for your entire journey. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Likewise. Thanks you too. Thanks so much for listening. If you liked the podcast, please subscribe and leave a review on iTunes or Spotify and share the episode with someone, you know, it would really help me out a ton new podcasts coming out every Monday.

See you next week.